email debate with Ed (anon) page 2

SInce your attacks against the credibility of the bible imply that you are actually qualified to make such judgements, would you be so kind as to tell me where you studied the languages of scripture and exactly how many hours you have garnered.

I would hardly characterize them as 'attacks', but it does show that you have taken a position to engage in some sort of war, albeit of words. Frankly, I would expect no less from a Christian, as war, argument and antagonism seem to be hobbies for most of you.

I studied in church and parochial school during my youth, as well as much of my spare time over the course of nearly 40 years now. I cannot give you an exact reckoning of the hours, nor do I have a formal degree in ancient languages, nor am I a certified bible scholar. Fortunately, my parochial school background provided me a level of reading, writing and comprehension that allows me the luxury of reading that which has been written by real bible scholars and historians, and to come away with some understanding I perceive to have value, if to no one other than myself.

Also, I would be interested in your credentials in terms of Jewish history and culture as well as ancient history of New Testament times.

My credentials are those of a common man with an enormous interest in the subjects which have led me on a 40 year journey through hundreds or thousands of uncounted texts by as many authorized and unauthorized writers and scholars, both historical and contemporary. Fortunately, one need not be Einstein himself to read and comprehend Einstein's theories. So it is with the history of religion, language and politics. Your condescending attitude will fit better if you shove it back up your ass where it belongs.

You see, it is impossible for you to make legitimate criticism of the scripture without at least a graduate level education (gained formally or informally) of the subject at hand.

I beg to differ. It is entirely possible for one to make a legitimate criticism with or without a graduate level education of the subject, simply from the standpoint of it being legitimate to the person making the criticism. Whether that criticism is valid is an entirely different matter. Still, the level of my education in the matter, though gained informally, should suffice to engage in civil and thoughtful discourse.

Your criticism is not actually a criticism of the NT scripture. It is an assault on a particular version of a copy of a copy of a manuscript which is a copy of an actual autograph, (BTW, do you know what an autograph is?).

My criticism is with the idea that supernatural stories should be regarded as true simply because a part of the story itself asserts that it's true, without corroborating physical or historical evidence external to the story that show any of the supernatural events to have actually taken place. And yes, I'm familiar with the terms, including 'autograph'.

For those of us who are use to debating 'scholars' on these issues, certain arguements do NOT surface. So, when I see a particular argument, such as yours, I immediately recognize that I am not dealing with someone who is sincerely investigating evidence, but rather, a determined critic, who, in spite of the best evidence will find a reason not to believe.

And similarly, I recognize immediately from your line of argumentative reasoning, that I am dealing with someone who is not sincere in investigating the evidence, but rather, a determined critic, who, in spite of the best evidence will find a reason to continue to believe supernatural stories that are entirely unbelievable and without true support or evidence.

Here is the sumation of the argument. Based on the amount and credibility of the evidence that we have before us today, is it reasonable to believe that Christian Theism is true or that Atheism is true.

Why leave out every other belief system? As a matter of fact, why group the 2000 forms of Christian theism all together, when they cannot agree with each other on what the text means? After all, that is what we're talking about here, isn't it? That's where you started. The text. If they cannot agree with each other, how am I to determine which is correct so that we may proceed? Shall I just take it on 'faith' that YOU ALONE are correct? Perhaps you should define in full your position, so that I don't make assumptions about your particular brand of Christianity, or belief system.

We begin with arguements from the most fundamental of all scientific laws, "The law of First Causes." Everything that began MUST have had a cause. Scientific evidence strongly supports the proposition that the universe and everything in it had a beginning.

Ahhh... I see... So we shall now shift the conversation from the text of the bible to one of physics, supposition and hypothesis in reference to the universe and everything in it. Fine.

Three choices here.

1. It always was.

Answer: the evidence says NO. It actually began, at some point, to exist. That is, there was a time when it did NOT exist. There are several lines of evidence to support this view alone (Infinite regress, second law of thermodynamics, etc)

2. It was self-caused

This is absurd. How can somthing cause itself, IF IT DOES NOT EXIST YET.

3. It must have been caused by something else.

But what? ot Whom? As with anything that is built or created, the creation reflects the charactistics of its creator. Examine creation and we see beauty, design, care, wonder, etc. So we see a hint of what this Creator must be like, but only a hint.

You've just made a giant leap from 'causation by the unknown' to your supposition that it MUST be an intelligent creator of some sort without any support. There's simply no way to KNOW. It may just as easily be a cyclic event from the collapse of a preceding universe in an endless series of such cycles, without any intelligence whatsoever. The point is, it is not KNOWN, so to assume it is your intelligent designer rather than any of thousands of possibilities thought of and not yet thought of, is supremely illogical.

Further, if you are going to pursue this line of thinking, you MUST then postulate where this intelligent designer came from. What or who created IT? It must, of course, be designed as well, if it has the characteristics of being a thing which cannot spring from chance. Certainly this designer, this god, could not come about by accident, it must have a cause.

If you would like to argue that there is something that can be infinite and without cause called god, you have defeated your own argument because you must therefore consider the POSSIBILITY that there are things beyond your understanding that may have no beginning, and the cyclic universe COULD POSSIBLY BE one of them. And since you don't KNOW... Ahem.... YOU DON'T KNOW. Period.

Is this first line of evidence consistent with what athiests and many agnostics believe. No, it is not. Atheists and agnostics must believe one or two above. But one and two are both implausible postulations. They are not consistent with what we know to be true in science.

I guess that shows how much you know about atheists and agnostics. I am an atheist, yet I happen to believe #3: It had a cause. I just don't happen to believe as you do that the cause was in any way intelligent or that the universe and everything in it is 'designed' in the way that you do.

Notice something, 'Buckster', I have not mentioned the bible once. You see, I don't need the bible to conclude that it is reasonable to beleive that there is a God. All I need are science, some intellectual objectivity, and good ol common sense.

What I noticed is that you forgot that you ALSO needed to PRESUME it to be true, since you don't KNOW. You like to think you're thinking logically, yet you've overlooked some of the most basic tenets in logical thinking. For one, you've decided to add a level of complexity where none is needed. When speculating about the origins of the universe, there is no need to interject god's hand making the physical happen, when the physical forces themselves are enough. For instance, it's enough to say the Earth goes around the Sun without flinging out into space because of gravity. There is no need to superimpose another indefinable, unknown, invisible, undetectable god continually holding it back from flinging out into space away from the Sun when we have the laws of gravity, momentum, mass and the definable physical forces that take care of the problem entirely without the intervention of a supernatural being.

This will not aid me in being saved or born again, but it will prompt me to say, ok, if there is a God, which one is the true God.

And how might you KNOW this?

Or how many are there.

And how might you KNOW this?

Then you begin to examine the Christian Worldview to see how consistent it is with science, history and what we know in our hearts and minds to be true about reality.

Awfully nice of you folks to finally exonerate Galileo after all this time. Reality is that the Christian religion has been working overtime to hold back science for it's entire existence. Examine history to see it in all it's glory. Medicine was evil and wrong because disease was God's way of punishing people. We still see this attitude today with AIDS. The problem is that the more we find out about the physical world we are actually a part of, the further away the mystical realm of god and religion's influence over man gets. Thunder and lightning aren't nearly as frightening since we took them out of the realm of god's wrath, yet lightening rods on buildings were considered evil and wrong for trying to thwart god's will by diverting his almighty power. History is chock full of this kind of stuff. Thanks for bringing it up.

You see, you don't have a problem with a God who says, Buckster, do whatever you want to do and you can still enjoy eternal life. Believe in me, don't believe in me, love or hate, make love or rape, it does not matter. You are all going to enjoy eternal life regardless. No, your problem with Christianity is that Jesus had the nerve to tell you and all of us how to live.

Gee, I hope you didn't bet too much on that one. Your problem is that you seem to think I really believe there's a god and a heaven and in Jesus' divinity and all that, but I'm just going against it. Wrong. Flat out wrong. I do not believe it at all. It is as real to me as Santa Claus or the tooth fairy. None. Nada. Zip. Nyet. I do not believe there is such a thing as eternal life. When I die, I will cease to exist entirely. I will never have another thought. I will not see my relatives and friends. I will not play a harp. I will not burn in a lake of fire. I will cease to exist entirely. Finito.

My problem with Christianity is my problem with all religions: It is a made up ghost story to control the lives of people, obtain power and make money. It is used as an excuse to make war, spill blood, murder, enslave, rape and pillage, hate and to feel good doing it. Christian nations, Muslim nations, Jewish nations, Hindu nations and other (insert religion here) nations have been killing each other by the millions of people in the name of their gods for all of recorded history. It promises without evidence an afterlife of eternal glory in return for a human lifespan of blood and death and worship to an un-seeable, undetectable god through a man in a robe standing at an alter of gold praying to a gilded statue of a torture device that was in use 2000 years ago. It presses upon our legislative bodies to enact laws that legitimize their religious ceremonies designed to indoctrinate our youth into this endless, mindless madness with things like open administrative-led prayer in school, in spite of their own God/Teacher Jesus' declaration that prayer should be done in secret between an individual and the father. They are hypocrites in Jesus' own words in their own bibles, yet they press on, knowing that by indoctrinating more and from an early age, they can attain MORE control; MORE power; MORE money to fuel their endless bloodbath.

Other than that, I don't really have much of a problem with it.

But again, would it not be reasonable for the creator to tell the thing it created, you are mine and you will do as I wish or else. And if you do as I say, you will have joy that is unspeakable, but if not, it is only fair to warn you that the pain will be unimaginable. We have fair warning, which is really what bothers you guys anyhow.

Fine. Let god himself tell me. Not a book written by men. Not a book that 2000 sects of Christianity cannot agree on. If god is real and all powerful; if eternal life for me is what he really wants, then let him tell me. He should be able to manage that. That should be the easiest thing in the world for a god. And it's not like I haven't asked. And I mean sincerely.

Here it is. You condemn God for sending you to hell for not believing, for whatever reason you have for not believing.

Wrong again Sherlock. I condemn no god, as I condemn no tooth fairy. I do not condemn things that are imaginary. I don't worry or care one whit about your imaginary place called Hell, because there is no such place. Period. I do not believe because I can find no reason to believe. Not one. Just as I can find no reason to believe there is a real tooth fairy. Just as I can find no reason to believe that there is a Santa Claus living at the North Pole. Just as I can find no reason to believe there are pink poodles with gills living at the bottom of the ocean that care deeply about my sex life. They are all fictitious figments of someone's imagination and have NO bearing on reality in any way shape or form, other than how people like you use them to try to control people like me.

But I would bet, that even YOu would not allow some people into heaven if you had the chance. Lets say the guy who raped and murdered you wife, and murdered and ate part of your kid in a brutal act. I would say, you would make a moral judgement that such a person would not enter your heaven. Why? Because they are, in your moral terms, immoral and not deserving. So where is the ciricism of God justified?

In MY moral judgment, it is WRONG to deny them entry to heaven (if it was my choice) since at that time, my wife and son are there as well, and we're all perfectly happy. At the VERY MOST, they might deserve some punishment for a crime committed, but the punishment should not be ETERNAL, WITHOUT END TORTURE. Sorry, I'm just not Christian enough for that kind of punishment on any sentient being. It just seems over the top to me. If god can do anything, why can't he forgive? Why can't he rehabilitate? Why? If I were god, I think I'd be able to. Even here on Earth we see plenty of people that forgive the people that have killed someone they loved. They plead to spare the life of the killer and so on. Are they better than god at forgiveness? How can that be? Why doesn't it make sense? Because it's a story to keep people in line, obtain power and get wealth here on Earth. That's why.

The difference between True Christians and Atheists is that, at least (godly) christians live a life that is consistent with their worldview and atheists do not. Christians are moral because it is logical to be so, given their views. Atheists have no logical reason to be moral or even think such a concept should exist.

Wrong again asshole, and now you're pissing me off. Who do you think you are to load your condescending drivel onto me like that, you worthless pile of stinking bible-thumper? I've lived a very moral life and can think of plenty of reasons to be a moral person for my own good as well as for the good of my fellow man. You think you know so much about atheists, but you know nothing other than they don't believe what you do. You think that makes them evil or immoral, rotten to the core. You think we don't care about people? You're wrong. Most of us are humanists. We give to our community time and effort. We help our neighbors. We have friends and loving families, just like you. You on the other hand, are the typical Christian, with your nose stuck up in the air, yelling "smell my shit you atheists!" People like you make me sick.

But I do want to thank you. Why? Well, thanks to people being able to observe Christian assholes like you, the number of atheists is rising every day, while the number of theists continues to decline. Don't believe me? Check the polls. You can guess where those numbers will end up eventually. Religion and all the blood and bull you people have shoveled for centuries is going the way of the dinosaur, and good riddance. Thanks again.

Yet an atheist will claim, without thinking it through, that if someone should steel something from them, they have somehow been wronged. They have no logical reason to think such a thing. Absolute morality has no reasonble place in the life of the atheist, yet they live as though it does, every day of their life.

You're such a moron. It's simple. If you don't want something done to you, don't do it to others. That's simple morality 101. It comes in all flavors, religions, cultures, tribes, etc. It always has. It was around before Christians, before Jews, before Hebrews, before Jesus. It was part of the culture before anyone wrote in the bible, "Do unto others..." It's a documented part of every culture on every part of the Earth. You Christians think you've got some lock on moral decency, when you've been the most bloodthirsty bunch that ever lived on the planet in human form. News flash: Everyone knows correct moral behavior instinctively. Chew on that for awhile.

I have not referenced one scripture, and I have only given you one line of evidence in a very condensed version, and touched upon another one very lightly.

My guess is that you realize that scripture is pure drivel and your ass has been handed to you more than once when trying to use it on someone like me. That's why you started out wanting to talk about it, know my credentials for discussing it, etc., then you immediately switched the conversation away from it. Gee, I didn't notice that.... You sure did outsmart me! Yup, yup, yup... Duh.

I will promise you this, your answer will be weak, inconsistent, and not scientifcally or historically supportable.

Mr., if you can believe that dumb god-story they've been feeding you for all these years, no wonder you don't understand what I'm saying. Let me know when you get up to elementary logic.

If you are interested in objectively searching for answers, I am more than willing to discuss some of your difficulties for not believing.

Please, don't bother. I've had more interesting conversations with my dentist while he has both hands in my mouth.

But if you are only interested in ignoring the evidence, and living your life, your way, and no matter what, no one will convince you.

Not that you'll understand in the least but, same to you. REALLY.

I will tell you the truth right now. Many have died, who were just like you. They needlessly have perished into the belly of hell and today, they don't just believe that God exists, they know He exists.

And now I will tell you the truth right now. Many have died, who were just like me. You have NO EVIDENCE that they ever had another thought after that moment, that there is a hell, or that there is such a thing as a god that exists. You believe it without any evidence, and you think you can somehow get me to believe it as well. Start with the tooth fairy. Convince me the tooth fairy exists first. Maybe then I'll be primed enough to buy into the god-myth.

I implore you to step back, take a deep breath, and lets talk about why you should re-examine your positon. Perhaps we can discuss the boundless love of God who would have His son die for such unworthy creatures as us.

I implore you to step forward, out of the darkness of superstition and ignorance and into the light of reason, evidence and logic. Perhaps we can discuss the boundless possibilities of the mechanics of the universe and our existence and find ways to live peacefully with one another regardless of our religious views; To abolish war and murder and suicide bombings in the name of god(s); To be nice to everyone, even those of other faiths or no faith, simply because it's a more pleasant way to live.

By the way, if you're really going to be so condescending about my education (why you think it's lacking, I have yet to figure out) you might want to tune up your spelling and grammar skills a bit. I admit, it's rather funny from time to time, that Christians generally spell like rednecks talk... but really... c'mon...

Buck

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