While I'm reading Orson Scott Card's new book "Enchantment", I come upon passages about circumcision and Judaism, and it occurs to me that there must be a God, or at the very least a "Greater Being" out there somewhere.

Just rudimentary proof, but I believe convincing a man to remove anything remotely related to his penis would have to be the result divine instruction. Otherwise, I don't think it would matter how drunk he was, that ain't gonna be anywhere on the list of cool things to do while drunk--tattoos--maybe, circumcision, NOPE!

Of course this could be the results of Thanksgiving leftovers gone awry.

------------------
You're in the NRA and ya got nudie pics? If ya got sporks too,then you're my
hero.

Men argue. Nature acts. - Voltaire

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Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

[This message has been edited by HattoriHanzo (edited 11-26-1999).]

quote:

---

religion in all it's flavors IS A PRODUCT OF MANKIND

---

Well, then answer my question, what man decides out of the blue to mutilate his private parts, even if is to "prove" the existence of God?

I could see claiming that the first man to try it was insane, but how the heck did he convince other men to do it? I can just hear the conversation now;

"Psst, hey buddy, God told me to cut the skin off the end of my penis, you should, too."

I really doubt there was immediate compliance to such a request.

------------------
You're in the NRA and ya got nudie pics? If ya got sporks too,then you're my
hero.

------------------
Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

I still say it sounds like a good argument for the the existence of God, the Judeo-Christian one at least.
I still don't think it is a solution to hygenic dilemmas that a man would decide to try. [edit] Without outside influence. In other words, someone had to be first, and who convinced him?[/edit]

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You're in the NRA and ya got nudie pics? If ya got sporks too,then you're my
hero.

[This message has been edited by Cornydog (edited 11-26-1999).]

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Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

*rat tat tat tat...* *explosions in the distance*

------------------
Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

Go way back to Genesis, and you'll find Abraham making a pact with God -- and part of Abe's half of the deal is to make sure he and all his descendants are circumcised.

Hanzo, it would behoove you to make one thing very clear: While those of us who have a firm belief in God cannot provide tangible proof to offer for his existance (or at least none you wouldn't try to explain away), neither can those who don't believe offer tangible proof that there is no God (or "higher being").

Interestingly, the fact that we are here, having this discussion, is more evidence of a "God" than you can overcome without resorting to just-as-far-fetched and unprovable theories.

What you have stated is your own opinion -- not the hard and fast fact you'd like us to believe it is.

------------------
Simon
simon@maccafe.com

There is no spork...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

Being brought up going to Sunday school each (or most) Sundays I tend to believe there is a God, but the logistical nature of my being can't fully believe since there is no proof. So as of right now I'm kinda sitting on the fence. Until i can decide either way, this is my philosophy.

It doesn't matter whether (s)he exists (in one form or another) but it does matter how we live our lives and the Bible (and a few of the other religions) have the right mentality and that is the path I will choose.

Does that make any sense at all or is it the ravings of a lunatic ?

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Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

However, I was paying specific attention to the phrase "Despite whatever is written in books, scrolls, tablets, whatever, religion in all it's flavors IS A PRODUCT OF MANKIND", in which you say neither "I believe" nor "I think", and even capitalize the passive "IS" in an apparent attempt to stonewall any type of opposition. I did take notice of the liberal seasonings of "I think", "I believe", and "I regard", but find this one statement in sharp contrast to one simply stating a personal opinion to be (in your own words) "taken lightly".

Please note that I never called the Biblical record "Evidence of God", though I did say that there is sufficient evidence for the existence of a higher being. Also note that I never called my own beliefs anything but far-fetched -- and only called whatever you might come up with as an alternate theory "just-as-far-fetched". What I mean by that is that since the point of the existence of a higher being is unprovable to those who refuse to look God square in the eyes, and since any other theory is unprovable to those who refuse to look anywhere but the eyes of God, we have positioned ourselves in something of a standoff.

I suppose that's the biggest difference between those who live by faith and those who don't. The man who lives by faith, does so because he has experienced God. (I'm not talking about those who need a crutch, or who need support. I'm not talking about "blind trust" -- something faith is not. Faith is trusting in something that has shown itself unshakable.) The man who refutes faith does so because he has not experienced God.

Both men believe what they believe simply because their belief fits their experience.

------------------
Simon
simon@maccafe.com

There is no spork...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

------------------
Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

plus.....
I believe three things on this subject...
1) There is a Supreme being.
2) I don't fully understand it.
3) It's not me...

------------------
To the world you may be just one person.....
but to one person.....
you may be the world.....

Btw, that was very well said Kagero, i fully agree with you. also, what religion are you?

^_^_^_^_^_^_^

quote:

---

Think about it . . . come on, use your brains

---

Alright, let's use our brains. Let's think mathematically - probabilities to be more exact. Let's say that the probability of the first lifeform forming on earth is 0.5 (that's fair enough - 50% probability).

Now, let's consider the probability of this simple lifeform developing into a higher lifeform, with a 0.5 probability of happening as well.

So the probability of these two events to happen sequentially, together is 0.5x0.5=0.25 (25% probability).

Now let's consider how many forms of life we have on earth - animals, plants, microorganisms. Let's also consider how many other species there are of each type of lifeform. What's the probability of all those things happening all together. That would be 0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5x0.5 unto infinitum. Thus the probability of all these things, all these lifeforms forming, is infinitely small. As mathematicians would say, the limit is 0.

What does that mean? It means that the way life on earth exists right now, our tangible earth, could not have come about by chance. There is essentially zero probability of life as being an accident. Thus, there has got to be another external thing, call it an external force, if you will. I call that external force God. God by any other name is still God.

I take offence at your comment kagero that Christians have a "superiority complex". That's a huge generalization. It's like saying that all white people are slavedrivers, or all Germans are Nazis.

And thinking using my brain, earth is only 6000 years old? noahs flood wiped about 1billion people with just 8 surviving, and no gene deformations from the rampant inbreeding? What about dinosaurs, when god created earth he decided to bury 40ton animal skeletons under the ground? use your brain on that?

note-i'm not attacking you, these are just my views

------------------
The Bored Guy

And where does it say that I take the Bible literally? Some of the things written in the Bible are factual, such as names and kinship relations.

It seems like you're applying stereotypes you know about Christians to me. That's what I find to be a gross injustice. All I said was I believe in God and I have a logical and epistemic explanation for my belief. As I said before, I am pragmatically justified in adopting my belief in God. If you look up the word pragmatic, it means it has a logical and practical application in my life. Why would you demean something that I hold most dear to my core?

Flip a coin, let's see if you really can come up with win98.

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Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

------------------
Ya'know, it's tragic how a family can be torn apart by something as simple as...wild dogs.

My previous post, the last paragraph was not directed to you, or attacking you.

To answer your question about God creating dinosaurs, when would they have lived? And from bible.com, here's a look why it's 6000 years http://www.bible.com/answers/acreate.html

------------------
The Bored Guy

I grew up catholic and I grew to despise the church's intolerance of other world religions. I found it down right insulting and embarassing listening to weekly sermons making derogatory comments about other religions and using the word "pagan" as if it was a four letter word.

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http://www.kungtribe.com/

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them. Romans 1:18-32 (NIV)

The fool [The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient] says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Will evildoers never learn-- those who devour my people as men eat bread and who do not call on the LORD? There they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge. Psalms 14:1-6 (NIV)

You can't prove the existance of God. It's a faith issue. Either you have faith or you don't.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

quote:

---

they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

---

I respect other peoples views, I don't like it when they force me to believe their views

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The Bored Guy

"You got the right idea, your hearts are in the right place, you brain just has to wake up".

I found that statement to be so true that it hurt. (after that four people walked out)...I find it awesome that you...Madonna..not to pick on you...have that belief or conviction. Great...but there are just some things about religion that just digusts me...Javoha Withnesses for instance...(not trying to offend anyone)...Came to my door one day and offerred to enlighten me...I started to laugh..and ask me what was so funny...I said that im catholic (non practicing)..they said that was sad and they could show me the way...when i said no thanks...he put his foot in my door and insisted...i had to almost push him out the door...(btw telling him to F**K off in the process)...

anywho...like someone earlier said...there is enough information to prove it as there is to disprove it.

Personally im my own religion...my own country with temporary borders and allies...i just find that people whoare extremly religous have a hard time accepting things...remember the movie Contact..SCIENCE IS NOT GOD..true..but science sure helps you out when you get sick..anyway...i liked that movie because the point where they were in the conference room and the man as the back from the collition (sp) said

"We don't even know if they believe in God". I was also very affended by this...how could an alien race...with its own morals and value...possibly know about OUR God...they probably have their own being that they worship...who knows...i know what im trying to say here without being harsh..and i know that your people know what i mean by this...Let God do his or her job...Man i dont want to sound rude...but he has a job...let him do it...if we choose to follow so be it...if i choose no to, so be it (peroid).

thanks for reading. ttyl

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"I'd rather be hated for who i am, then loved for who i am not."

"To be able to cry when crying is necessary is to be strong inside yourself as well as outside yourself"

quote:

---

I respect other peoples views, I don't like it when they force me to believe their views

---

Your absolutely right. I think it's very wrong for anyone to force their views on someone else, and I'm not trying to do that. The choice is up to you to believe or not, and when someone hears the gospel, either they believe or they don't.

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:17

What is the word of Christ?

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." Romans 10:9-13

Why do you need to be saved?

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."
"Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."
"Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."
"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know."
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
Romans 3:10-18

...for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,... Romans 3:23

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Since everyone has sinned, how can anyone get to God? Get forgiven.

In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Hebrews 9:22

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets (Old Testament) testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished-- he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? On that of observing the law? No, but on that of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law. Is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles too? Yes, of Gentiles too, since there is only one God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through that same faith. Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law.

I like how I tied it in at the end with circumcision I know I know, i'm making it too complicated. Well here's the bottom line.

You have sinned. You are on your way to hell (yes i know thats offensive! but it was meant to be that way). Jesus Christ was a sacrifice for sins. He came, lived a perfect life, and died on a cross to pay for your sins if you will call upon him. He was the only one who didn't deserve death. You can be made perfect and right before God if u will just repent or your sins and believe it. For:

if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

That's the gospel message.

Does this offend you? Sorry, but:

To whom can I speak and give warning? Who will listen to me? Their ears are closed [Hebrew uncircumcised] so they cannot hear. The word of the LORD is offensive to them; they find no pleasure in it. Jeremiah 6:10

Sorry I got so long winded, but i had to say it all. Post or email me if you have any questions.

I just want you to know that you're basing your appeal on a site that does not even hold any credibility with any person with any kind of sense. That site's content does not even remotely represent what the Church teaches. I have never in all of my Catholic studies ever encountered anyone who was stupid enough to believe, let alone preach, that the earth is 6000 years old.

Albert Einstein said:

quote:

---

Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind.

---

bible.com is just an example of the latter. It's completely blind to any scientific knowledge. I am a scientist and Catholic at the same time. One gives perspective to the other.

We were talking about FAITH, not CHRISTIANITY. I explicitly avoided that particular can of worms, since it was a little (not alot, but a little) off-topic.

But since it was brought up...

theboredguy: I'm not sure what I believe about "the young age of the Earth". I am, however, fairly well convinced that dinosaurs and man lived at very near to the same times... and in fact experienced some overlap. I know "science" will attempt to debunk it, but it seems to be that there's a pretty vivid description of a Brachiosaurus in the book of Job -- called "The Behemoth".

There are too many issues with dating fossils by strata to make that a very believable method -- like dinosaurs being partially buried in up to three layers, that should represent millions of years of build-up. And carbon dating is inaccurate in the extreme. (See previous threads on evolution for my reasoning.)

As far as the "chances" of flipping a coin, converting the results to binary, and getting the source code for Win98... have you ever heard of a concept called "Ockham's Razor"? (Or "Occam's" or "Ockam's".) If not, look it up. Basically, "Ockham's Razor" says "the most simple answer is likely the most true answer" (though that's not what it actually says -- it's an interpretation). If you have the source code for Win98, which is the most simple answer: Someone wrote/created it, or that it happened by accident?

Science applies Ockham's Razor to just about everything... except when it comes to evolution.

A more simple answer to buried dinosaurs is the recession of the flood, and the bodies of the creatures being left in the sediment that remained. (It would explain the composition of the earth in which fossils are normally found, too!)

kagero: It's discouraging, but you're right. Unfortunately, Christianity is being defined more and more by its most vocal minorities -- those who don't really adhere to the Christian scriptures in the first place. I'm not sure I have the authority to do this, but I'd like to take an opportunity to apologize for those of us who haven't taken the time to do as the Lord commanded -- remove the plank from our own collective eye before trying to remove a perceived speck from yours.

"Geez people, just because you attempt to understand or at least tolerate another 'religion' other than your own doesn't mean that your faith is compromised." - A very good point and one by which I strive to live. I don't compromise my faith in God by having this discussion with you, or, for that matter, eating a ceremonial meal with a very close Islamic friend of mine. Faith is a matter of your own relationship with God.

Hanzo: I, personally, never said "Christian God" or "Jesus" or "Jehovah" when I was speaking about God. I simply mean that this: by virture of Ockham's Razor, the simplest answer to the existance of the universe is the existance of a greater power to create it. An experience with that greater power is the thing that brings about faith. And those who denounce concepts like faith are those who have yet to have an encounter with that greater power -- God.

This is not my perception of God that I'm talking about. I'm a Christian, and can tell you for a fact that there are as many perceptions of who God is inside the church as there are outside the church. My perception of God is incredibly different from any Christian that I have met... though it matches standards set forth by the Bible.

What I'm talking about is faith -- the beginning of the knowledge that there is something more to this existance than us.

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Simon
simon@maccafe.com

There is no spork...

Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur.

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Go Be. Go.

http://www.be.com/

A true atheist is not someone who refutes the belief in God, but doubts it. A true atheist says, "Give me proof, otherwise, I still doubt the existence of God." That's by philosophical definition.

There are many gods....

mwhahahahah!

quote:

---

site that does not even hold any credibility

---

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The Bored Guy

quote:

---

I have never in all of my Catholic studies ever encountered anyone who was stupid enough to believe, let alone preach, that the earth is 6000 years old.

---

Just a funny sidenote to the discussion, but I HAVE MET PEOPLE LIKE THIS!

I met a girl in college who took the Torah as the universal history book and I think all her friends did and everyone in her particular jewish study group. It was just so funny to hear her bark how the earth is only 6000 years old. We'd present scientific arguments to counter her and she'd be like well how can you prove that, who was around 4.5 billion years ago to catalog all this? LOL.

I just thought it was disturbing that narrow minded people like this roam the earth, unable to accept that other perspectives and views exist in the world and that her religion wasn't the end-all center of the universe.

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http://www.kungtribe.com/

I can respect people who believe in the bible. But I have NO respect for those that say the bible is "Unerring." To say that is simply ignorant. There are more inconsistencies in the Bible than most every other book ever written. The gist of the bible may very well be right, in your opinion, but you simply cannot believe it as absolute fact. It was, after all, written by humans, and no human is infallible, not even the pope. Hell, I bet there was a typo (or write-o) in the original copy of one of the books...is that absolute truth?

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

------------------
Go Be. Go.

http://www.be.com/

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

If you believe the biblical account of creation then you can't have evolution because that would mean there was death before Adam sinned and if there was death before Adam sinned then Christ came for nothing because he came to take away sin and death. The result of sin was death. And you're right about not taking the Bible literally in every sense. There are several different genres the bible is written in such as narrative, poetic, historic, prophetic and so on. One can't take prophetic scripture, such as Revelation, literally.

In response to The Flymaster:

I believe the Bible is inerrant because it says it is inerrant and infallible.

And the words of the LORD are flawless, like silver refined in a furnace of clay, purified seven times. Psalms 12:6

Your promises have been thoroughly tested, and your servant loves them. Psalms 119:140

Every word of God is flawless; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Proverbs 30:5

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. 2 Timothy 3:16-17

Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation. For prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. 2 Peter 1:20-21

If I believe these verses of the Bible to be true, then I have to believe all of it is true. If I believe there is error here, than I can't believe any of the Bible. I'm not saying that there was never any error in translating it through the centuries, but there are no variants substantially affecting any Christian doctrine. I also believe scripture doesn't contradict itself, so when reading you have to understand the language, the culture, the geography, and the history of the time it was written in to understand what the writer really meant.

Do you believe that? If not, why not? Why is that any different from the bible?

------------------
The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

Gautama Buddha's Kalamas Sutra:

Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard (or read) it

Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations

Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken or rumored by many

Do not believe in anything simply because it is written in your religious books

Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers or elders

but,

After observation and analysis, when you find anything that agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

------------------
Shikata gai na!

quote:

---

Madonna: I believe that God created the world and I believe evolution as well. They are not incompatible. Science and religion are not incompatible. I don't think the Bible was meant to be taken literally in every sense.

---

quote:

---

The Flymaster: It was, after all, written by humans, and no human is infallible, not even the pope. Hell, I bet there was a typo (or write-o) in the original copy of one of the books...is that absolute truth?

---

quote:

---

HattoriHanzo: Gautama Buddha's Kalamas Sutra:

---

quote:

---

Fadi: I believe the Bible is inerrant because it says it is inerrant and infallible.

---

Good night and God Bless........

------------------
To the world you may be just one person.....
but to one person.....
you may be the world.....

[This message has been edited by peachyteej (edited 11-29-1999).]

And I'd like to point out that today's Bible isn't the same Bible from the time of Moses or Jesus. The book has been written and re-written over the millennia. Different versions tell totally different stories and contradict each other. At the birth of Christianity, during the Roman times, there were already hundreds of different versions of the gospel, all written with specific agendas, many of them modified with a Roman poly-theistic slant to appeal to the masses at the time. Present day versions of the bible always appeals to the present day sensibilities. Like by the time the King James version was put out, there's no telling how the original message from the time of moses had been butchered and manipulated.

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http://www.kungtribe.com/

My point exactly.

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

Belief in something (anything) makes a human stronger.

Religion is a manmade creation. The belief in a (or many) higher being(s), is a desire/need humans have.

I am an athiest.

We are arguing.

Quoting the bible is fruit-less since mine is different than yours.

We breathe a combination of oxygen and carbon dioxide, among other chemicals.

You will die, and so will I, we will all die some day.

It doesn't matter what you think/believe, the world will still rotate, ppl will still condemn you for your beliefs, and thousands will die every day having NEVER been into a church, or had the 'word of god' shared with them.

For any individual to proclaim , that they are the only one's praticing the 'true' faith, will most certainly condemn you in the 'rival' (and I use that term LIGHLY) church down the street.

These statments are not speculative, they are true and most often testable. Factual arguments against a 'feeling' issue ... religion, and that is where the religious will tell me I've already gone wrong ... "you can't prove god exists, you must feel it for yourself" ... and hence, we are at a stalemate.

*grin* ooops did I get a little snippy? Did I generalize too much? Forgive me, Christians NEVER generalize "pagans" You will have to excuse me . . . sometimes I let the little witch come out in me . . .*wink*

Good point.

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

kungtribe: No one here is condeming any other religion. Most of the people who have spoken about God merely say that they believe in the existence of higher power. "God" is not just Judeo-Christian. Allah is what Muslims call God. Buddha is what Buddhists call God (although the Buddha is technically not a deity because he never said he was). God is God by any other name.

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http://www.kungtribe.com/

And I have to quote the Bible because that is what i'm trying to present, and i know that the words of the Bible are powerful.

For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. Hebrews 4:12

Read it for yourself, see if you don't feel conviction, see if you don't find truth. Prove me wrong.

I am trying to present the gospel, so that you might be saved.

I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. Romans 1:16

Yes and i know u don't want to hear it and probably think it's stupid:

For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Corinthians 1:18

...but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles... 1 Corintians 1:23

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 2:14

I definetly did not want to sound as though I was attacking you. You are one of the few true Christians that I have seen. You are not a brainwashed, blind zealot. You manage to see that while (in your opinion) the bible may be the truth, it is not completly irreconsilable with science. That is what sets you apart.

Fadi:

To say that you can find NO error in the bible is just not true. Rather, you have not looked for error in the bible. You believe everything in it on blind faith. In order to find an error, you must look for one.

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

I can't pull up any specific bible quotes, since I've only read it twice. But there must be lines in there somewhere saying that all you need is faith in God, or Jesus, and you will be saved.

Tudore,
non-christian, non-atheist

But the faith issue is one reason to show that there can't be a god. God is faith, right? Well, as Madonna has stated, only god could have created something as complex as life, thus proving his existence, and eliminating the need for faith. Therefor, god can't exist, at least not the Judeo-Christian god. (Shamelessly stolen from HHGTG)

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

quote:

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God is faith

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

That's really sad about people rejecting you as a friend because you weren't Christian. I think they weren't being very Christian at all. To me, other religions can actually enhance my understanding and love for my own religion and well as theirs because I can see commonalities that say living a good life is good.

The reason I keep quoting the Bible is because:

Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ. Romans 10:17

I personally see the bible as a good guide to general living, and think that that was what it was intended as. If you read it as a metaphor or example, you'll do pretty well in life. But that doesn't mean that I think there are a whole lot of facts in it. Remember, religion is nothing more than santa clause for adults. It keeps the peasants in line, and makes the job of king/emperor/whatever a lot easier. As such, it sure makes you a much more pleasant person if you follow the 10 commandments (the last 7 or 8, anyhow) and should be seen as that. But nothing more.

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The spork does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people.

In fact FAITH requires NOTHING at all. Just a (human) brain.

If what you say is true Fadi then deaf ppl are going to die very un-enlightned.

Quote all you want to, most of us here just don't care to read it ... now tell us what you think of what you read and then we're all interested.

I've read three versions of the christian bible ... I don't want to read them again, thank you. But if you've got any unique thoughts about it, or different spins on what you've read, PLEASE share that!!!

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And one time at band camp. . .

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